The Grit Factor Podcast w/ Karl Jacobi

TGFP Ep 28 Audio

00:00:00 Speaker: Average is the enemy of greatness. Comfort is the enemy of growth. Welcome to the Grit Factor podcast, where we strip away the highlight reel and get into the darkness beneath it. The real stories, the real battles, and the battle plans used to conquer them. I'm your host, Carl Jacobi, combat vet, entrepreneur, resilience and performance coach, keynote speaker, husband and father. I've built, scaled, and exited multiple companies totaling over forty million in revenue. But here's what that highlight reel doesn't show you. Life has been smacking me in the face with a two by four since I was just five years old. Broken home. Constant chaos. No playbook. No safety net. Just grit. And if you're anything like me, You know, you've got another level in you, in your business, your career, your faith, your leadership. You're just not sure how to get there. That's exactly why we're here. Be sure to follow me for more great content, and check out my website success with Karl dot com. Now that's Karl with a K. Now let's get to work. All right. Welcome back to the show. Today I am joined by the Vice President of operations at one of the most trusted MSPs in the southeast. Twenty years in it, spent the first decade in the financial sector and worked his way up to vice president of technology. And then he did something that most people in his seat never do. He stepped out of the world he had already won and walked into one. He had to start all over in. Which is something I can completely resonate with. Lifelong resident of Leesburg, Georgia. The story isn't about a collapse. Rather, it's something much quieter. And it's a season that most leaders never talk about. The season where you already have the title, the salary and the seat at the table, and you choose to put yourself back at the bottom of the learning curve. So Chris, far, my dude. Welcome to the show, my man. Thank you. Glad to be here. Glad to have you, man. I can't wait to dive in. So Chris, man, take me back to the financial sector days. Paint the picture for the people that are listening or watching. What did work life look like for you, man? What was your role? What did a strong week feel like for you back then? Well, back then, um, I had worked my way up to vice president of technology, you know, at a local credit union and, you know, kind of climbed the ladder from there, you know, from everything from being in the trenches, you know, all the way to, you know, moving up to a leadership position. And so really in that world, you know, it's, it's basically are the, the, the front line people, the front line employees, are they able to do their job at the end of the day? You know, that's, that's what it kind of boils down to. Even though, you know, there's still a lot of forward thinking, you know, we've got to see what's out there on the landscape, what's coming out, you know, especially in that world, it's, you know, compliance, security, you know, just over the top just because, you know, you're playing with people's money. You know, at the end of the day, you got to make sure that's secure. They don't like it when that disappears. No time to frown on it. Yeah. And so just making sure that all those, you know, all those things are just working. And, you know, and that was in the I came up in the time too, when online banking, you know, was coming to be a thing. You know, that was where, you know, we still had fifty fifty. You know, a lot of people were still using the phone teller system, you know, but then pushing out. Yeah, yeah, it was, it took a lot. It took a long time to get people to turn loose of that, you know, and go on to, you know, home banking. But yeah, that that was the world that was in. And, you know, just making sure that everything's working properly and making sure that the technology is there because, you know, back in the day, especially in that world, it was a mainframe and dumb terminals, you know, that people were working on the old green screen prompt and scroll. Yeah. And so, you know, bringing that into kind of the, the newer way of doing things and getting computers out on workstations and, you know, a lot of training too, because, you know, a lot of those, a lot of those employees, you know, they didn't really have, they didn't use a computer day to day. It was just that dumb terminal. So introducing, you know, just this is how we do things. Now, this is the point and click. This is the web browser. You know that you can you can do it. So yeah, it was a, it was a lot of that. But yeah, it was fun though. I mean, taking it from hardly. No, I wouldn't say no technology. I mean, like I said, there were mainframes sorts of things, but bringing it out of the quote unquote dark ages, you know, just getting it, You know, getting things out there that that people were using. And back then, the credit union industry was kind of slow to adapt. You know, some of that just because, you know, just the nature of it. And so, but then as the landscape changed, you know, it was you got to, you got to get on board with that or you'll be left behind. So it was a great time to be in the financial IT world. It sounds, it sounds mighty familiar. You know, it sounds like very familiar to what we're experiencing now with AI, right? Um, to the point you're talking about, get behind or you're going to get left behind. It's very much the same experience that we're experiencing now with AI, right? Get behind it or you're going to get left behind. Right. Um, you know, I love to hear your insights on that if you can later on. Um, but man, I think you've, uh, may have dated us a little bit, you know, as we're talking through this stuff, you know, because, uh, you know, there's some younger generations that listens to this show, but man, that really takes us back a while, you know, as you're talking about your history there and what they, you know, what your week week would look like. Um, so in that era or in that time era that made it sound even older, didn't it? I bet you did. Dinosaurs. In that time, man, what did Winnie look like in that world? Not the resume version, but the version where you went home on a Friday and you felt good about the week. What was that, man really? Just, um, making sure that the the members because I mean, that's the terminology, you know, in that world, the members of the credit union making sure they had a great experience. I mean, that that was the thing making sure that the technology was working to the point where you didn't have a line wrapped around the building in the drive through and, you know, and the people were able to come in and do their business because, I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, your job security is as strong as the person who's there. You know, that's your, your customer. And so making them happy and making sure that they had a seamless, you know, transaction, so to speak, and just making sure they were happy with the experience. Because I mean, everything that you do, you know, from an IT standpoint, drives that customer experience. And so if you're not doing a good job, you kind of feel that, you know, you're feeling it through. Help desk tickets that the employees are putting in, you know, you're seeing it through not necessarily complaints, but, you know, just different types of, um, of recommendations, you know, that the clientele, you know, wants to see. And so as long as you ended the week, you know, in a good way where you knew that what you were delivering was setting the employees up for success and giving the client, you know, a good experience. At the end of the day, you know, that's what made you go home and sleep well at night. You know, that way you knew that what you were doing, you know, had an impact. Yeah, it makes sense, man. I appreciate you diving into that a little bit, especially as you evolve over time from technology, you know, various stages and forms of technology, right? I mean, I mean, you're talking about mainframes, you know, to, you know, uh, to what we have today. It's vastly different, right? So to navigate users from, uh, you know, to, uh, a teller experience to, uh, using a phone system to now they just go online and, you know, they essentially self-serve, right? Going from the era of where everything was, go to the bank, go to the bank, go to the bank to do this day to day things to now it's like I personally, I can't even remember the last time I went to went to the bank, you know, I mean, I do everything online or through the app. Um, so, but in twenty sixteen, uh, if you don't mind, I'd like to put some context on how many years we're talking about here up to this point. But in twenty sixteen, you decided to make a move, um, you know, out of corporate I.T. into the MSP world. And I'd like you to talk more about the MSP world. Um, want me into the first week? What was on your plate that had been on your plate before. The biggest part was dealing with multiple companies and their ID versus just one particular company's ID that, you know, like the back of your hand. Yeah. And so that's a little nerve wracking there. You know, when you, when you go into a corporate type world, you know, where you're in that small to medium business world, you know, you go in every single day, you know, what the server setup is, you know, the technology that you need to implement, you know, everything that needs to take place to make that job successful. You know, then you're just looking at ways to then make that particular company better where in the MSP world. And this is what intrigued me to this as well, is you can have an impact on multiple businesses. You know, there's a lot of businesses out there that don't have the IT expertise in-house, whether that's because of, you know, they don't have the means to be able to bring somebody in at that level, you know, right now, or they just they don't need it. You know, they could just outsource it and be done with it. But when you do that, you also lose a little bit from that. Just forward thinking from an IT standpoint. And so that's where an MSP kind of comes into play. You know, there's multiple different flavors of the MSP world. There's everything from a shop that'll do just your break fix, you know, where your computer slow, you can't print, you know, the things you need to do your job day to day. And you know, that's only a part of it. You know, that's important and you've got to have that. But it's important with an MSP that you team up with somebody who can bring the project management aspect and that CTO type role, that chief technology officer, you know, something that you don't need one hundred percent all the time in your business. But when you're working on those quarterly meetings, you're working on forecasting for the next year, the next five years or whatever, that looks like you need somebody that's got a partnership with you, at least that can kind of help guide, guide you through that because you may know you want to get from A to B, but you don't know what's needed to get from A to B from a technology standpoint. And so that's where an MSP comes into play. And so again, that's what intrigued me when I came on board here, is that you've got you're able to make that impact across multiple businesses. And even though you're helping to make them better through that partnership, they're making you better too, right? Because, you know, they're, you're hearing different insights and you're hearing different ideas and the way they do business. And that in turn, you know, you can pick the good and the bad and, you know, and say, okay, well, these things are great here. You know, I think we can kind of, you know, use some of these ideas within our business to make us even better. Yeah. So that's, that's the, the blueprint of a, of a great MSP is one that's not treated like a vendor. They're treated more like a partner, you know, treated more like your CPA, so to speak, somebody who's there and has your back, you know, and the better that you do, the better that MSP is going to do, you know, so then and so we're bringing all that to the table. So that that's kind of the MSP world what brought me to it. And that's what excites me about it too, because it's never the same thing twice. Nice. Thanks for sharing that journey. Now, let me unpack something for, for a moment here because, um, I don't think you quite made it glaring enough for the audience to capture this, but you, you decided to move on from one season where you had one customer, right? Um, to now we have many customers. Let me rephrase that. You have one customer with lots of customers or members, right? Uh, to another season where you have multiple customers, you know, and a lot of ways you had to start over again, right? You had to relearn things. You had to relearn systems and relearn. So, you know, walk us through because I know if it were me and I've done this right, I mean, I've exited a season of life or, uh, you know, uh, most of my life or adult life of twenty five years was tied to e-commerce. And so I left that, Um, blend of both. Not really a choice. Well, it was actually a hundred percent my choice. Um, but a large part of my identity was attached to that. Right? It was because that's all I had known for so long. So, you know, for you, man, when you're that's all you've done for so long. Serve one customer. You know their lingo, you know everything about them to now you're in another different ecosystem. How do you feel that your identity was shattered at all? Do you feel like you, you're in this state of like trying to figure out your ground, get your footing into place. Do you feel like that was affecting you at all? Yeah, I really do. At first, you know, when you when I first made the transition, yeah, it was a lot of that because, you know, you you think day to day it's like, you know, did I make the right decision? This is really what I need to be doing. You know, I mean, I pretty much knew the world. Yeah, it goes through your mind, but I think with every bit of that doubt that crosses your mind, though, they make you better too, because then you have to kind of, you know, play those mind games with yourself, you know, and convince yourself that, hey, yes, you did make the right decision. Yes. This is something that's going to long term make you better because you know, you're not getting complacent just in one world because, you know, there's more to it than just one thing. But it's also good when you can look back and know, hey, when I started at that place and then I left that world, I made it. You know, I can say that I made it better than the way I found it. And so that's like something huge there, you know, that you can take away and then you can kind of set that bar again for yourself and you know and know that, hey, what I'm doing today is going to make something better. You know, within this industry, you might not know what it is at that time when you're doubting everything and all your decisions that you made. But as long as you stick with it, it's enjoyable and it's something to because it tests you. And so, you know, I think it's good to kind of put a little pressure on yourself, you know, to make yourself better and to learn something new because and that kind of goes into play with the working with one particular company, you know, you're limited on what you can learn just on your day to day because you are you're confined to that one system, so to speak, or that one company, one industry where when you step out of that, especially in this world, I mean the limitless at that point, because when you're kind of vertical agnostic, as far as an MSP where you're not, you're, you're not pinned down to just the legal industry or just the healthcare industry. You may be shifting years throughout the day, working with a health care provider, working with a lawyer, working for a K-12 school. And so it's all different dynamics. And then even at the technician level that we've got here, I always say that it's the MSP world is the best place to cut your teeth as of as a technician, as an engineer, because you're going to see the whole gamut as far as it you're going to see all different types of systems where then if later on you do transition to the next act of your career from a technician and you go into the corporate world, you're bringing all that knowledge and all that, Just all that troubleshooting skill that you've developed from seeing things across multiple industries and being able to take that into wherever you go. I mean, that's better than any anything you'll learn within the confines of a school, you know? I mean, it's just that hands on and that troubleshooting that you see. It's the best place in the world for a green technician to come in and learn the skills and learn the trade. It just it just goes, it just takes you, you know, even further than what you could do on your own working on one particular type of industry. Yeah. I mean, that's an interesting perspective for sure. You know, it does give you a vast or a much broader capacity for experience, you know, especially with all the verticals you explained. You know, I mean, I, I didn't even I didn't even think about that until you explicitly said that talking about, you know, one client or one customer could be here and here and here, and that could cause for me, that would probably cause some chaos in itself because you learn the lingo of one sector, right? One space and you hop over to another. You've got to relearn a completely set of different terms and lingo and acronyms and and nuances and everything else, man. So real quick, before we keep rolling, maybe life hit you hard. Business fell apart. Career isn't working out. Relationship ended. Health took a dive. And now you're standing in the rubble. Trying to figure out what the next move even looks like. Or maybe nothing blew up at all. On paper, you're winning. Sure. But on the inside, something's off. If you're not in crisis, you're at a crossroads. And the playbook that built the life you have is not the playbook that builds the one you want. Either way, you're stuck. Not broken. Stuck between who you were and who you're becoming. Most self-help just piles more weight on load you're already carrying. I do not want to do that. I put together a free video series called the Grit Code Exposed, and I want to invite you to check it out. Seven short videos. That's it. The five laws that change everything for me. In every client, I coach the same five that every person who's ever come back from the fire has walked through where they had a name for it or not. No fluff, no ninety minute webinar, no bait, just the free video series. You can start it tonight. Grab it at grit. Code exposed dot com one more time. Grit code exposed dot com. It's free. You don't need any more hustle. You need the next version. And this is how you find it. Check it out. See if it speaks to you. And if it does, I'll see you inside. All right, let's get back to the conversation. And it makes their customer service skills even better too, because they're talking to multiple people across the board, you know, and you got to communicate with people, you know, the way they want to be communicated with. That's true. And that's a good point. Very good point. Uh, and in fact, I don't think you put a whole enough value on that is we oftentimes communicate people or communicate to people in a way that we need to be communicating. What I mean by that is we communicate things the way we think we need to communicate it, but it's not always received right in the way we intended it. You know, and this is something I know I personally struggle with. I try to always to be more cognizant of how I communicate because I may say something on a whim, but to them, it may come off as an a hole horse or somebody cold or or what have you. Right. And that's why it's usually best to have that person revert back to, hey, do you mean to sound so rude? Or do you mean to sound cold or. But that's a great point, man. I think that's something that's really under valued. In my opinion, it is. Yeah. It's important. You know, we drill that into, you know, every technician that's here because it kind of goes back to that golden rule. Treat everyone the way that you want to be treated, but you got to take it a little bit further. You know, it's more like the platinum rule where you've got to treat other people the way they want to be treated. You know, just take it to that extra level. And because, you know, in the tech world, especially, you know, as long as you communicate well, you know, you don't use that technical jargon to somebody who doesn't care about the technical jargon. And as long as they know that you care about the problem that you're fixing, they'll forgive your technical inabilities, you know, because you're going to slip, you're going to fall, you're going to not fix the problem the first time. But as long as they know that you genuinely, genuinely care about them, their problem. And, you know, the severity of that one little issue that you think it is, but it's a huge issue to them because it's keeping them from doing their job. And as long as they know you care, you know that that's where the relationship really gets tight. That's it. Exactly. I agree it's that genuine human connection, man. Especially in today's times, man. I think that's going to get I mean, honestly, I think we've already missed it for you know, I'd love to hear your input on this man. But I think since twenty twenty, when the world got stupid, um, I think in fact, I believe that we got into this severe distrust where we just lost connection with human beings. Right. And I think it's only going to get worse now with the implementation of AI. Um, where so much is AI generated when it comes to content or just making a phone call for that matter. Um, you know, that makes an extreme point, man is having that genuine human connection that we need to have. In my opinion, it's a must. Not a nice to have, right? Yeah. You know, I agree. And yeah, with AI especially, I mean, in, in the world of AI, I mean, the best way to view it is don't, don't try to use AI to replace people. You know, that that's don't just, you know, using AI to make people better is one thing. Make your job more efficient, help you out, do what you could do in two hours. You can knock it out now in thirty minutes or whatever the case, you know, just use it to use it as a tool. You know, don't take away, like you said, that human interaction. I mean, that's so important. And, and the more you use AI to completely replace people, you know, or replace certain jobs, it's going to alienate people. So yeah, I mean, I'm a, I'm a huge proponent of, yeah, use it to make your life easier and better not to replace something. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. I know we're in a discussion or I remember a discussion a few months ago about the same thing you just talked about. you know, it's not for human replacement, but more so from the perspective of empowerment, right? Empowerment, efficiency, uh, and so forth. And you know what, you know, uh, if your team member uses an AI tool that saves them twenty hours a week, sweet. Incentivize them of how they can implement AI into the rest of the business to save, not to, you know, get them out of the business, but to empower them with that, you know, because, uh, you know, if we're not careful, you know, we're going to go down this, uh, path where AI is going to pretty much replace every or not every, but a large part of what human society was playing a role into. And we're going to get just even more isolated, more entrenched into our own stories and our own four walls. And it's just a dangerous place, man. It is. And you lose track of what's real and what's not real. Oh yes, oh yes. Especially nowadays, you know, especially you look on social media, it's like, can I even trust that video? Can I even trust that post? Right. Yeah, exactly. Man. Exactly. Well, let's kind of go back to this pivot, man, just briefly, if you don't mind. Uh, you told me the cost that, uh, the move costs you your comfort and confidence. At times. I did hear that. Um, I would love to hear one of those times. Not a season, but rather a specific day. Um, because, you know, there's a lot of people that's listening, myself included, where we battle times of doubt, right? Where we shift from one season to another or make one pivot from one another, where it could be founders, parents, business owners, career professionals, such what she had done. Um, but I want to hear some examples that people could probably relate to, or maybe the day, you know, where the confidence had cracked up or something that you, you're like, man, you're really starting to doubt yourself what happened? And what did you end up saying to yourself? Well, I mean, the biggest thing I could think about from that aspect is when we were much smaller as well. We were I was more hands on as far as in the weeds and um, more wrench turning, so to speak. You know, when we were just a little bit leaner years ago. And so coming from the world where I knew exactly what dials to tune in and what to fix, you know, and how to get it like, like I said, like the back of your hand when you're coming in and you've got, you know, a client, you know, breathing down your back, so to speak, you know, needing something up right now because their, their whole site is down or their whole business is down. And then, you know, you think, you know, quote unquote it, you know, and so, but then when you get thrown back into the wolves, it's, you know, it's more one of those second guessing myself like, do I know this as well as I thought that I knew this. Yeah. You know, because you think, you think you're at a certain level and then you step into a whole new world and then you it humbles you. It humbles you real quick. And so really just standing back, you know, and just saying, okay, you know, I've done this before, you know, as far as, you know, getting to the root problem, basically just peel back all the noise, you know, just get to the problem, the root of it, you know, of what's going on. And then just start kind of just crawling before you walk kind of thing and trying to get your bearings together as far as you know, when you're working. Because again, working for one particular client, the only person when that person is down that you're really effecting is that one employee and they're a coworker at that point. So when you, when you're affecting a coworker and their ability to work, when you're working on their particular computer, it's a whole different experience and a whole different conversation than it is when you're talking to somebody who's writing you a check every month to do their it and you know, and you're not, and, you know, you're still cultivating that partnership with them, you're, you're getting them to trust you as a, as an advisor, so to speak. And so, yeah, that's one of the things that pops in my mind at first with that question is just you second guess, do you even know what you're doing from that standpoint. And so because you're seeing brand new technology from, from the standpoint of you've never seen that before. And so then you're basically starting over as a green tier one technician, kind of, you know, on that particular line of business app, they may be using that. You're trying to peel back this onion and figure out how it works, number one, and then get to the root cause of how to fix it. So that was the biggest humbling experience back in the earlier days. Man, I you're talking back through that, man. I'm just imagining myself in that scenario, man. We're, um, you get to this point where you're so confident in your abilities, right? You get so confident and almost arrogant in such a way now. And don't get me wrong, there is a level of arrogance that you can definitely take with this, but there's this sense of belief, right in your abilities to, to accomplish a set of tasks. You know, when you've been doing it for so long and in space for so long for one specific client team, you know, and so forth. And when that gets cracked, man, it can really, it can really do some damage if you're not careful. Right. Because in that moment, man, we can start developing negative stories. Man of man. What are you serious? Like, or, uh, was this even the right call and so forth. So for you, man, uh, the first to twelve or in those first to twelve, eighteen months, was there a moment where you you wondered, did I make the right move here? Did I, did I make the wrong call? Yeah. I mean, it was in that it was in the first I would say, before the first twelve months. I mean, just in the very beginning of it. Yeah. I mean, I got in there, you know, and kind of, you know, hit the ground running. You know, I wasn't going to let this, you know, beat me, so to speak. Good. And so yeah, and it, it does, it requires a lot of just after hours, you know, and on the weekends and on your time, you know, just resharpening your skills, you know, just getting what you thought was at a certain level sharpness wise, you know, taking it to a whole nother level, you know, whether that's reading books, whether that's, you know, watching videos, trying to figure out, you know, different ways to do things and sharpening, you know, what you already got, which did make it a little bit easier not coming from zero, you know, so at least when you at least when you start over with a good basis underneath you, it's easier to get to that next level. But still during that first transition, during the original in the beginning of the transition, of course was tough. But yeah, you know, just with the self doubt and, you know, imposter syndrome, those types of things that always seem to come, come to be, you know, when you're in a situation like that. But no, there's a lot of, um, a lot of after hours, a lot of weekend work and relearning some things that I had already learned and forgotten, you know, and just, and then, you know, and just learning different things about different industries too, you know, like we talked about and, you know, what do they expect? How do they do business? How, what type of line of business apps do they use? How do they use their technology that another vector, you know, wouldn't use their technology and, you know, kind of put all those together, which was, you know, at the end of the day, looking back on it and even going through it, it was a fun process because, you know, you're always learning something new. So I wouldn't I wouldn't trade it for anything. You know, at this point it was, I feel like it took me catapulted to a different level, you know, as far as just skill set. And then from a leadership standpoint too, you know, you go from managing, you know, a group of people, again, working at the same company where here, yes, you're, you're still managing and leading people under you at this company, but then you're kind of leading your clients as well, because once you gain that partnership relationship with them, you know, you kind of have a seat at their leadership team table from a technology standpoint. And so you're helping kind of guide decisions and kind of help lead them, you know, in the right direction they need to go to. So it kind of sharpens your leadership skills as well. Yeah, one hundred percent, man, I, I agree. Thanks for sharing this, man. This has all been great wisdom and a lot of knowledge bombs being dropped here. You know, so fast forward, right? Things started to click, you know, evidently. Right. Because now you guys are, you know, doing, you know, amazing and thriving. So what was the first thing that shifted for you? Was it tactical? Was it mental or was it a combination of both? Really a combination of both. I mean, just changing the mindset, getting that and getting getting that in the right place. And then with that, um, just, you know, getting the right systems in place, you know, just take it and realize what we need to put in place to make us more efficient. And so yeah, it was kind of, it was kind of a little, a little bit of both. You know, I don't think you can have one without the other. You know, if you're trying to go and grow at that level, that is true. That's a good point. I, I, I appreciate that perspective. You said, uh, clarity and adaptability, uh, and steady leadership matter more than having all the answers. And man, I really want to hear your thoughts on this because I can really appreciate that sentiment. When do you, when did you actually start believing that? Or did you have to act like that for a while as though you believed it until it actually became real. Well, I kind of believed it from from early on. I mean, it just seeing how other I was blessed to have some, you know, some great leadership, you know, in my world, as far as as I was coming up and cutting my teeth in the industry. And so kind of seeing how they behave and seeing how they lead, you know, a team was good. Of course, you got bad ones and you've got good ones. Yeah, I mean, I was I was blessed with having more good than bad. And but yeah, and just the clarity. I mean, that's the biggest part of it and the accountability. You know, if people see you, you know, taking accountability for your actions and when things don't go right, you know, it just, it speaks volumes to the team. And they know that, hey, you know, you're going to help them through their issues as well. You know, when they arise, like they always will. And the clarity, I mean, just making sure kind of what we talked about earlier was, you know, when you say something, how did they perceive that, you know, what did they take from that conversation? Are they hearing exactly what you meant? That was supposed to be said? Because, you know, it's like a game of telephone. If I tell you something, you tell the next person. There's no telling how that's going to translate down the wire. Yeah. And so yeah, it's huge. Yeah. I love that, that analogy. You know, the the game of telephone. Um, real quick before you go, if you're still with me this deep into the episode, something in it hits you. Maybe it was the guest, maybe it was one line. Either way, you're still here. And that feeling in your chest right now. That's the signal. Most people get a signal like that and do absolutely nothing with it. They close the app. Life rushes back in. The moment's gone. Six months later, there are the exact same spot. I don't want that for you. So I put something together. I want to invite you to check out a free video series called the Grit Code Exposed. Seven short videos. The five laws. I walk every client through. The same ones that rebuilt me when everything else fell apart. And if you listen closely, you heard them running underneath the entire conversation because everyone who's come back from the fire walks through these five laws. Some find them on their own, some get help, but the laws don't change. Free video series. You can start it tonight. No fluff. No ninety minute webinar. Just the series. If you're going to do something with what you heard today, do this before life talks you out of it. Go to grit Code exposed dot com one more time. Grit code exposed dot com. And hey, before I let you go, thank you for riding with me this long. It means a lot more than you know. Thank you. I'll, uh, I'll stick to the short version of this, but I remember an instance not too long ago where I shared, uh, something I experience with a good friend of mine. And, uh, about two or three months later, I ended up hearing the version of what I had told him was completely freaking different to what I initially shared, you know? And it was ironic, too, because I had people contact me if. Are you okay? Are you are you okay? Do you need help? I'm like, what the heck is going on here? Yes. I'm fine. We're doing very well. Like, why are you why are you calling me a text me. And don't get me wrong, I love the, the, you know, the contacts, right? But, you know, let's make sure it's coming from a good place or the information is factual, right? But you know, you said something that made you successful in one season, uh, won't automatically make you successful in the next. And I completely agree. And I don't think people really understand that until they switch seasons or switch from one chapter of life to the next. So, you know, being that I've been through numerous seasons, you know, through our kids getting older and then, you know, starting to spread their wings to leaving one space to another and other types of seasons I'm dealing with. Um, I can definitely appreciate that sentiment. So what did you have to let go from your corporate world, your corporate IT version of yourself to get to the next one or to this version of you now? Well, a lot of it was just, um, I hate to say that it watered down this way, but really just on the job training from that aspect, you know, because when you, when you kind of get into, into this world, you really don't know, you know, what you think you're supposed to expect or you think or you think you know what you're going to expect and you get into it. And I'm sure it's like this in any transitional period, if you're going through it to a different career, you know, and then it's, again, it's humbling because you're having to relearn different things and you're having to retool what you've learned over all the years, you know, and just kind of tweak it to make it fit, you know, within a whole different culture, within a whole different company. And, but yeah, that's it really just kind of you kind of grow as a person, you know, through that. And, but yeah, I can't pinpoint exactly one, you know, pivotal time, but I can look back on it and go that I'm not the same person that walked in the door that I am right now. You know, a lot of things have kind of changed and made me better through that process. And a lot of that's just time, you know, and because it just becomes old hat after a while. But yeah, every transitional period in life, you know, comes with different, different nuances. You know, like you said to, I mean, I'm seeing the same thing with the kids, you know, growing and doing their own thing, you know, and then, you know, me and my wife kind of change and, you know, how we do things because, you know, it's just, it's just us in the house, you know, a good bit and it's good. You know, it's every, every, every season in life comes with, of course, it comes with a little bad, you know, a little, you know, looking back and reminiscing, you know, those things. But yeah, it comes with a lot of great things too, because you learn a lot about yourself during those periods, you know, and you learn just different things about how you, how you behave as a person, you know? And then like I say with us guys, you know, we get more mellow, you know, as time goes on. So I can agree with that. Yeah. Even in my management, my management style and my leadership style, you know, I've changed from I've leaned more, I lean more now on how can what can we do to make this person better? You know, if they're not doing well in this particular area, is there a different seat that we can put them in within the company that help them thrive? So there's a lot to answer that one question, but that's kind of where I stand on that. No, that's a great perspective, especially that last sentence you said, right. Where can we put this person? And I've had to do this in my companies too. In fact, I had a conversation last week with an entrepreneur. Um, he was having, uh, some doubts about one of his employees. I'm helping some consulting work, um, reorganizing, reorganizing his infrastructure because, uh, the talents are misaligned. Right. Um, and so just recently we had this this conversation, right? So, um, this person was not thriving. He was an analytical by nature, but he was doing some creative work, graphic design and so forth, and he was just not thriving. So he finally had a conversation with him. And this guy was been with him for three and a half years, you know, and, uh, so finally, long story short, you know, he's like, yeah, I, I'm very analytical, right? And so, um, so ironically, he had an opening for somebody to do some analytics on his YouTube channels and social media and so forth. In the first week of the realignment, he has thrived far, you know, better than, you know, the three and a half years that he was in his previous position. He's happier, you know, everybody in around him, he they're happier because they're in that environment. Right. Um, the owners is, is much happier because he's seen him thrive. But I think that takes a mature leader to, to navigate to, to have the wherewithal to realize, okay, this person is not thriving in this position instead of canning him or her, where can we best utilize this person so that they can thrive in that position? And at the same time, guess what? That's win win win. Because the, the, the, the environment, right? The team also wins, the company wins. Everybody wins. Right? As long as they're a culture fit at the end of the day, you know, as long as they're a culture fit, then definitely. I mean, try to try to squeeze them into a different seat. It's that whole right, you know, right person, right seat mentality. But yeah, as long as it's, it's, it's hard to teach the culture, you know, you either get it or you don't or you, you know, you get on board with it or it's just not your bag. And then, but, but skills though, I mean, you can teach skills and there's multiple different things to do within a company. So yeah, I mean, finding a culture fit. Oh yeah. I would definitely try to put them in a different spot before just canning. I mean, that's because it like you said, it makes everybody happier because the people that work with them are going to be happier and they're going to be happy. So yeah, you know, it is a great spin on it because I think that part needs to be relooked at too. Right? If the person is a fit, we just need to realign their talents with position. Right? Uh, and not that they're just being a raging A-hole or they're, they're unethical or not loyal or they don't show up to work on time. So yeah, that does take a huge part of it. So. Well, fast forward to today, man, almost a decade at envision, right? I say that correctly. Yeah. What are you most fired up about today? Right now in the work really is just making sure that all of our clients have what they need as far as, um, not just IT services, I mean, not, not just their break fix, so to speak, but making sure they've got the guidance and the expertise that can help lead their businesses. Because, I mean, the better the business is doing the community, the better we all do. And so it kind of one of our taglines is empowering communities through technology. You know, it's one of those where if you're a teacher, you're a lawyer, you're a doctor, you go and do that. That's, that's your wheelhouse. You do that best I t problems. Let us handle that and let us help kind of guide you and steer you from a business standpoint of where you want to go, where you want to grow to. And so that's really the passion of it now is working with, with some of these companies and just helping them kind of steer the ship, so to speak. And then also to the bigger that we get, um, you know, just having that other layer of management too that's down there, you know, working with, you know, the different people in the departments and helping kind of grow their leadership skills and their management skills and watching them kind of flourish, you know, as they kind of come up through the ranks. That's exciting there, you know, just kind of helping them and kind of just, you know, giving back the things that were given to me and helped me out along the way. You know, just some of those little tidbits, you know, just that you kind of wash off the bad, keep the good and, you know, kind of share that. Yeah. And so yeah, that's, um, that's really exciting to me there. The bigger that we get and just having more people, you know, being able to learn the trade and especially from a management and leadership standpoint, because that's something that you really got to, you know, you can take courses, you can watch videos, you can read books, but until you've done it and got time under your belt, you know, you're going to stumble, you're going to fall. So it's just great to kind of just help, you know, build those guys up. Yeah, one hundred percent man. And it's interesting you say that because that was something I was going to lead into next is, you know, you told me you're in a season of, uh, where you're, you're more focused now on, you know, sharing what you've learned, uh, so you can help others not just in business, but in leadership and technology. Uh, I'm just curious what in this season has inspired you to do that? What's changed? Why now or why this season really right now is and it's been a season we've been in for a little while, is just cybersecurity and the way that it is on the landscape right now. There's just so many businesses out there that think that they're too small, you know, for to have a cyber attack and, you know, you you may be small, you may be too small to wind up on the national news, but you're not too small to have something catastrophic potentially happen to your to your business. And we're all, you know, we're all stewards of everybody else's information. You know, all these like a law firm and a doctor's office. I mean, they're stewards of our information that they're, they're tasked to protect, you know, and so one bad day, you know, with a bad actor, you know, in a network or on a system or something that, you know, an employee let in by inadvertently clicking a link, so to speak, you know, and just watching some of that and then, you know, teaching our clients and just going through the process of these are ways that you can protect yourself. These are locks you can put on the door, you know, to kind of help that out. And then especially with cybersecurity insurance nowadays, you know, you're typically, you know, insurance and your business insurance isn't going to cover a catastrophic cyber event. And so as these, as companies are getting cyber security insurance, you know, they're presented with a stack of forms they have to fill out saying, hey, are you doing this? Are you doing that? And the terminology is so it's so over the top that if you're not in the IT world and in that day to day, you're not really going to know what they're even asking you whether you're doing something or not. So kind of helping guide them. It is, it's a huge risk, especially, you know, filling out something that you don't technically understand. You know, it's that's where we've kind of became even more of a fit for a lot of people is just at that level, you know, they may have a full fledged I.T. team as far as their break fix and their help desk internally. But that extra layer who can kind of come in and say, okay, this is this is some things you need to put in place. These are some, some gotchas that we've seen in the past. So yeah, that's really the season that we're at now. And it's just because cybersecurity is such on the forefront right now. I that's a great point. And I think a lot of people that are listening right now that are business owners or entrepreneurs or founders that are looking at their business like, well, you know, what, could I have anything to worry about? Because that's an excellent point. Yeah. It may not make a headline news. Of course not. Right. I mean, it's only exciting when Microsoft or, uh, you know, Academy, you know, sporting goods or something like that, right. Or visa gets, you know, this, you know, uh, they get, uh, you know, they get hijacked, but, you know, a small amount of pop shop with twenty five employees or ten employees, you know, they still have, you know, vulnerabilities that they need to be concerned about, you know, to be concerned with. Right. So, well, go ahead. Oh, no, I said, yeah, they do. And the small and the small mom and pop shops like that, especially when you're in a small community or small town, your reputation risk, you know. That's yeah. So I mean, these are people that you've got to see in the grocery store. These are people you've got to see at church. I mean, you see at different places. And so just just that reputation alone, you know, that's, that's enough right there just to make sure you've got all those box checked. That is, that is a good point, right? It makes, uh, barbecue or cookouts a little bit less comfortable for sure. Yeah it does. Yeah. Well, for the person who's listening that wants to learn from you or your work at Invision, where do they start? What's the best way to connect with you, man? Because, you know, for the person that's listening to you right now. And guys, let me tell you something. I, you know, uh, I've been in spaces where or places too, that, you know, it doesn't take much, especially in today's era with AI, it does not take much to make yourself vulnerable. Right? So, you know, take this, you know, for, you know, what it is, you know, take takes heart to this, but where can they where can they find you to learn more about you? Or maybe they have some questions about their own infrastructure. Yeah. The best place to get me is on LinkedIn. That's, uh, all my information is out there, my contact information. And, um, also if you go there, I've recently published a book too. And so there's some good material there and a lot of just posts that I've got out there. So yeah, just I'd say visit the LinkedIn page and then if anybody's got any questions, just, you know, shoot me a message. Nice, nice. What's the title of your book? I mean, I want to hear the title of your book. It's called built in the trenches, built in the trenches. Nice. I love that title. I, I already love that title, man. I'm gonna have to find me a copy of that and get me one. So yeah, I'm proud of it. It was something I did get out of my comfort zone. So yeah, it's, it was worked on for a while and, um, yeah, finally got it published. So it's out there for the whole world to critique. Nice, nice. Well, good job man. I gotta get my hands on a copy of that. Well, awesome. Well, in the, in the, in the remaining minutes that we have together, I'm going to go through these rapid fire questions. Um, in this season of life, what does grit mean for you? Grit is just sticking with it, you know, regardless thick or thin, you know, regardless of how the wind is blowing. I mean, just staying with it just, you know, not giving up. Yeah. Keep on keeping on. That's what I that's it. I when you said that reminded me of a line from Joe Dirt. Keep on keeping on. Oh, man. This has been fun. Yeah. In this season, I'm in, man. There's been constant talk. Uh, or not, I would just say my season in the era that we live in. Right? There's always this introduction or addition of things, additions by or not adding systems, adding beliefs, adding strategies. AD. AD. AD. But I'm also of the belief that in order to level up, it also requires subtraction, not just adding. Right. So in this season that you're in, what is one thing that you're actively removing or subtracting so that you can level up? Uh, anything you have to unlearn or unbelieve or any point of friction you had to remove so you can advance to that next level. What would that be for you? Well, I think a lot of it is just kind of the mindset that I mentioned earlier as far as, um, mainly when it comes to just interaction with, with leading, you know, leading people and working with people is, you know, not, not knee jerk in that reaction as far as, okay, well, this person's not a fit or, you know, even if it's a company, so to speak, that that's a client, you know, and looking at it, going with it, that's not a fit. And then flipping that and going, okay, radical responsibility, you know, what, what could, what could I do to change that relationship? Or what could I do to change the outcome, you know, of, of what this is, you know, and looking at every scenario, whether it's, you know, good or bad. And regardless, even if you didn't have a huge hand in whatever happened, surely you can take a little bit of responsibility because you were there, you were in the realm, you were there, you know, in that space. What could you have done to make that situation better? And so changing that mindset from that is, um, kind of what I'm concentrating on. Nice radical responsibility. I like that, man. That's one of our core values, really radical responsibility. That's that's catchy man. It definitely catches for sure. Nice man. All right. Last two questions. Last one's a two part. Both of these I have prepared you for in the green room. Uh so. To your books point while you're in the trenches or you're in the thick of it, um, what is a quote or directive or, or even a scripture that will pull you through that moment of darkness or in that season of Uranus, in the trenches, in lights are out. Well, usually in our world when you're in the trenches, it's, um, there's a client whose site is down, there's a client who's got a major catastrophe, you know, regardless if it was self-inflicted or whether it was, you know, just something completely out of anybody's control. But when that's really when the times are down, so to speak, that's when you're kind of in it. And I kind of go back to pretty much, um, a lot of Sam Walton quotes of all things. That's one of the, one of the best books I've read is his autobiography, and one of the quotes that stands out, which I've got written down here in my office, is that your job security is only secure as long as the customer is happy. That's true. They can they can fire everybody from the board of directors on down. And so regardless of the situation, regardless of how you feel when you're going through it, just making sure that that person who is that you've been tasked with handling everything for them, making sure they're happy at the end of the day, or at least know that you care at the end of the day. And so as long as you know, as long as you can, you know, just put that perspective on and make the person, you know, at least feel that you care about their problem, you care about their situation. That's what's going to make the huge difference. Nice. Nice. Thanks for sharing that, man. All right. This last question comes in two parts. And those are listening for the first time or watching for the first time. I always love to challenge my current guests with my or to challenge my future guests with a question by my current guest. And guys, the the lineup is completely anonymous, so it wasn't like I told Chris in the green room, hey, my next guest is blah blah blah blah. I mean, he wouldn't know who he is anyways or she is. Um, but the lineup is completely anonymous and so far this question has landed every single time. If you listen more than one episode, you will clearly hear that. So my man Matthew Hasler had this question for you. And again, this lineup is completely anonymous. How do you distinguish between pushing through and showing grit versus knowing when to pivot and reevaluate? Well, that's a good question. It is. I know when he told me this, I'm like, man, well, and I really think that it depends on what the end game is. I mean, if it's something where, you know, everybody's on board and you know, you're wanting to push this ball forward. And you know that at the end of the day, it's the it's the it's the best plan, the plan of attack. It's the best, you know, either business decision product, whatever the case is that you're doing and just sticking with it, regardless of everything is just falling apart, you know, if everything is just not falling into place, but you know, that end goal, you know, you're not going to deviate from it. I think that's when grit kind of comes into play, you know, and just kind of sticking with it. But then on the flip side of that coin is if you're trying to push that same ball up the hill and you know, you made a decision across, you know, around a leadership team table and on paper and on the whiteboard, everything looked great. But when you actually get in the trenches and you assign those certain tasks to different departments to help move this thing forward, and you're realizing that, no, this isn't the right decision either because of, you know, X, Y, and Z, whatever that is. You got to have enough wherewithal to go, okay, we need to, we need to pivot. You know, we either need to change this, tweak it, or take it back to the drawing board and can it completely nice. Love it man. All right. So what would you love to ask my next guest? I would say, you know, when you're in that chaotic situation, you know, when when everything is falling, you know, around you, so to speak, how do you keep your team motivated? You know, what do you do to make sure that, you know, the people that are, you know, under your as your direct reports, how do you keep them marching forward when it looks like there's no light at the end of the tunnel? Ooh, that's so good. That's so good. And looking at my guest lineup again, so far it's been perfectly um, that's a good question, man. That's really thought provoking. And it really does demonstrate the capacity for leadership, right? Um, I love that. So yeah, it's easy to lead when things are going right. You know, it's just when, when things are going bad, that's when you're kind of leading yourself to, you know, through that fire, so to speak. Yeah, one hundred percent, man, one hundred percent. Well, Chris, man, dude, it's been amazing to have you for for this last hour. You know, as we talked through your journey, things you're excited with and things you're working on at envision and sharing your, your teachers heart and just giving back to those that are wanting to absorb information from you, wisdom your nuggets of wisdom and just be where you were twenty years ago, right? You know, they are where you were. And, uh, they're looking for that hand up, not a hand out, but a hand up to pull them out of that situation. So Chris, man, I really an honor and respect you for showing up for this last hour. Um, thank you. I really appreciate you coming on here, man. Yeah, thanks for having me. I enjoyed it, yeah, man. Me too. Me too, me too. For the person who is listening and wants to connect with Chris in, uh, either explore his services or learn more from him, I'll be dropping all of the all the links in the show notes, his LinkedIn profile, um, even, in Lincoln's book. I think it might be available on Amazon. That's one place where a lot of people are familiar with. But those that are listened for more than for the first time, you know, this is coming to those that are listening and watching. The gap between average and excellence is just action, even if it's just imperfect, dirty action. Please don't just listen to Chris today. Take one thing he shared today and use it. Don't use it next week. Don't procrastinate. Use it in the next twenty four hours. Be the reason someone doesn't quit today. Don't just keep this episode to yourself. Someone in your circle needs this right now, so send this episode to them. Chris. Again, I do thank you so much for stepping into the ring today. Man, I'm such an honor to have you, my man. I'm glad to be here. Thank you. Absolutely.